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Written on: 24. 01. 2010 [10:12]
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bugipilot1  Board SOTopic creator
registered since:
24.01.2010
Posts:
2 |
Hi,
I have been trying to find out in details how a co-pilots from airlines in Europe are doing ATPL(A) skill test. I am flying as a co-pilot on B737 300-500 and have CPL(A), IR(A), type with all the requirements for ATPL (and the written exams) but the airlines have never did a training and a skill test for co-pilot who are not trained for Captains. The CAA Inspectors in my country says that have to be done from left seat and noting else about combining it with company PC (so I can save money). In my country the CAA inspectors are not knowledgeable about that and half of them even say that ATPL is only for captains?!?!?!
I know that some pilot are doing ATPL skill test which is counted for PC. I read all JAR FCL but looks like dead end….
I need to know if anyone has done it (step by step) or knows for sure how some airlines are doing it. The following questions are the ones which no one knows the answers (in my country):
1.At which seat I should take the skill test for ATPL for B737?
2.Can I train according Appendix 2 to 1.240 & 1.295 from right seat on my company sim training, then for the skill test to sit at the left( 2 hours at left and 2 hours at the right seat) pass the skill test and that to count for ATPL skill test and proficiency check even I have been sitting at left seat?
3.Can I interchange the seat during company Simulator training, pass the ATPL skill test at left seat. And according which document even I have been seating at left can be count for co-pilot PC?
4.If I go to a TRTO school for ATPL skill test from which seat I have to be trained at to take the skill test?
I‘m asking because the airline for which I fly says that if they don’t know how legally to combine PC with ATPL skill test I should pay for simulator separately. The CAA Inspector are quiet because have no idea how should be done. Any experience in Europe will be helpful.
Thank you in advance.
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Written on: 24. 01. 2010 [19:42]
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fliteadmin  Board SFOAdministrator Moderator
registered since:
26.12.2006
Posts:
201 |
Hi there and welcome to the forums!
This is indeed a question which is often asked by many pilots. So you are not alone with it at all!
I happen to be a TRE and work in a training organisation where we face these questions almost daily.
The reason why you do get different answers is most probably because airlines handle this question differently.
I myself was working in an airline where you would only get your ATPL when you upgraded to Captain. Not sure why they did it this way, but I can see two main reasons:
1.) If an applicant wants to do his ATPL Skill Test, most CAAs want to be notified before the check. This is extra paperwork for the airline.
2.) A pilot with an ATPL has a higher market value, therefore the chance that he/she is leaving the company is increased.
I assume that many CAA inspectors you have spoken to are working or flying for an airline in your company and therefore think the rules which apply to their airline are the rules of the JAA/EASA.
You say that many stated the ATPL Skill test is only for Captains. This is of course not true. Lets assume you are flying for a major airline and time to upgrade takes more than 10 years. I don't think that a Copilot on a large jet is flying with a CPL after serving the company for 10 or more years...I think you get the point...The airline will make sure that the pilot will get his/her ATPL at some stage.
To answer your 1st point:
You should take your ATPL Skill Test in the right hand seat (I guess thats where you are most familiar with the aircraft)
The Flight Examiners manual, published by the JAA, says '...the applicant may choose either the left hand or right hand seat for the test.
The manual is no longer available for download from the JAA website as EASA is slowly taking over all these issues, but I doubt that this recommendation has changed, see reasons above (long time F/Os). Your country might apply a different rule, but taking a skill test in the left seat would not make sense at all for a Copilot.
The same rule is also referenced in JAR FCL / Appendix 1 to FCL 1.240 & 1.295 / paragraph 10.
2nd point
Switching seats would not make sense at all for the given reasons above. A skill test can easily be incorporated into an LPC. All the company has to do is to notify the authorities and the examiner has to include the mandatory items like on any other LPC. The only difference is that you have to fly a raw data ILS approach.
3rd point
Try to speak to your authorities or company again. I do not think that you do have to do the check in the left seat.
4th point
In our TRTO you would do the check in the right hand seat. But unfortunately we do not have a B737 sim... 
It looks like your company is not very keen on letting their FOs getting their ATPL. I think they should, since you fulfill the requirements and deserve it. On top of it, it would be very easy to do and requires only little effort to send the application to the CAA.
I hope my answer was of help to you and I hope you get your ATPL soon.
If you need more details please do not hesitate to ask again.
Regards, Stefan
flightwork.com - International Pilot Network
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Written on: 25. 01. 2010 [12:48]
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bugipilot1 Board SO Topic creator
registered since:
24.01.2010
Posts:
2 |
Thank you for the professional answer Stefan,
I though the same way but.... If it is not a secret can you write me back the countries in which the CAA inspectors and TRE are thinking like you. I'll need that information when trying to convince CAA inspectors in my country
If some one else from Europe(Germany, France, Switzerland, Austria, Spain .....) knows how is done in their or different countries please write couple of words.
Thank you,
Best regards,
Nick
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Written on: 25. 01. 2010 [18:37]
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fliteadmin Board SFO Administrator Moderator
registered since:
26.12.2006
Posts:
201 |
Hi Nick,
No problem, this sort of questions are my daily bread 
I actually just recalled that we did ATPL Skill Tests for a German and French client afew weeks back.
The pilots were surely seated in the seat they were most comfortable with (i.e. the right seat).
All that was required on top was that a French resp. German Inspector was attending the session wich was carried out by a Swiss TRE.
If you cannot convince the people in your own company by showing them the JAR references, it might be best to do it on a private basis in a TRTO approved by the CAA of your country. TRTOs which are not related to an airline tend to to it according JAR rules as slong as the national CAA agrees with it. They also know best what the requirements are and they have an interest to sell you a SIM session.
Airlines have often their own customized and airline oriented procedures and ask for more training than required by the CAA. They are also often not flexible enough to accomodate individual requests.
My recommendation is to try to find out via an independant TRTO what your options are resp. try to get an answer from your CAA what your next steps should be.
Good luck!
Stefan
flightwork.com - International Pilot Network
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