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Should pilot unions step in to fight pay2fly schemes?
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Written on: 27. 02. 2012 [22:13]
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fliteadmin
 Board CaptainAdministrator Moderator
Topic creator
registered since: 26.12.2006
Posts: 463
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I've just visited a few pilot union websites in the search to find a union that fights against pay2fly schemes. No luck. Most issues are around fighting fatigue and other safety issues. While such schemes do much harm and damage to the pilot job, I wonder why no unions are taking any action against such schemes. Can anyone explain? flightwork.com - International Pilot Network |
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Written on: 28. 05. 2012 [21:39]
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JulienGuastella
 Board Cadet Pilotregistered since: 09.12.2011
Posts: 9
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I totally agree with you, I think the unions should take that fact into account and actually fight against it. I think a law would do good, but as the problem is international... |
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Written on: 02. 06. 2012 [15:50]
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fliteadmin
Board CaptainAdministrator Moderator
Topic creator
registered since: 26.12.2006
Posts: 463
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Hi Julien and all, Agree with you: IFALPAs mission statement is: The mission of IFALPA is to be the global voice of professional pilots by providing representation, services and support in order to promote the highest level of aviation safety worldwide. and more... Promoting and enhancing the role and status of professional pilots in ensuring the safety of the aircraft and well being of passengers and goods entrusted to their care. Do pay2fly schemes... - help to enhance the role and status of the pilot? - help to increase aviation safety? is my question... flightwork.com - International Pilot Network |
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Written on: 03. 06. 2012 [15:15]
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JulienGuastella
Board Cadet Pilotregistered since: 09.12.2011
Posts: 9
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So what do we do? Shall we write to some unions? I will be taking part, if you decide to take action against it! You have my total support. |
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Written on: 03. 06. 2012 [16:51]
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fliteadmin
Board CaptainAdministrator Moderator
Topic creator
registered since: 26.12.2006
Posts: 463
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Hi Julien, The fact that it is an international issue, makes it more complicated, no doubt. The idea to write the unions crossed my mind, too. It would not change anything, but at least it would show what unions think of pay2fly schemes. That would be a first step. But before writing letters etc. I would like to make better use of this website to highlight the issue. There is a new networking tool planned among other updates on this site and these can be used to bring the issue to the attention of the public. More news on this hopefully soon. Many thanks for your offer to help. I will get back to you should the need for support arise. Safe flying, Stefan flightwork.com - International Pilot Network |
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Written on: 03. 06. 2012 [16:55]
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JulienGuastella
Board Cadet Pilotregistered since: 09.12.2011
Posts: 9
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100% with you, Stephan! |
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Written on: 03. 06. 2012 [17:00]
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JulienGuastella
Board Cadet Pilotregistered since: 09.12.2011
Posts: 9
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Oh by the way, the last answer I sent to a line training offer (the offer was from BAA Baltic Aviation Academy): Good morning, I am really disappointed to receive emails like this one you just sent me. If you really have a job to offer me, please be kind enough to let me know, but paying for a type rating and even offering a line training arrangement without even at least having a job offer at the end? First: I would never pay any money to do a line training: this is the responsability of the employing company to provide at least training in order for a first officer (or captain) to fly the airplane or helicopter in a JAR-OPS environment. 500 hours to do a line training? I didn't know a line training could be so long. Second: unless you provide me with an employer at the end of the Type Rating, I would never pay for the type rating. Sorry, I have line experience and I think this merchandising is really silly and makes the job market even tougher. Pushing candidate first officers to think they could get a job only if they pay for their training is really not professional and misleading. Thank you not to send me any advertisement email like that one but rather, tell me if you have any job available. Regards, Julien Guastella |
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Written on: 04. 06. 2012 [22:06]
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fliteadmin
Board CaptainAdministrator Moderator
Topic creator
registered since: 26.12.2006
Posts: 463
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Hi Julien, Excellent. If more pilots would do the same, the pilot job market would not be where it is at the moment. I've heard different opinions about BAA and their training offers. But it seems a bit a risky investment considering all factors! flightwork.com - International Pilot Network |
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Written on: 21. 07. 2012 [18:52]
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kiwi-99
Board Cadet Pilotregistered since: 10.09.2011
Posts: 14
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Hi Stefan, Pay 2fly is indeed a very interesting topic. I do not agree with you and the others. In my opinion pay2fly is the result of greedy airlines and the unions that also stand behind them. This phenomenon is present in Europe, Middle East, Asia, South America, to a certain extent in America and Canada but not in Australia and New Zealand. Years ago Airlines used to pay students to become pilots while training them. You know that Stefan. I just like to mention SLS, the Swiss Aviation School which was run by Swissair. These days, if someone wants to be a pilot he has to pay for it himself. Some airlines sponsor some of the cost but, you normally pay the sponsored portion back within the first 3 to 4 years while working, through salary deduction and at the same time you have a bond. Basically there is not much difference between that and the classic pay2fly which everyone seems to hate and get upset about. If a student completes his or her integrated multi engine IFR training with MCC privately, and whishes to apply for example with Swiss Regional, he or she has NO chance of getting in. They need to bring the following flying qualifications at time of application - valid JAR ATP License (frozen) - min. 1000h experience on Multi Pilot Aeroplane (MPA) Jet or Prop - valid Multi Engine Instrument Rating (IR). They won’t even look at you.  This is only one airline example. Stefan just have a look at your own pilot web page: 1000hrs to 1500hrs experience, minimum 500hrs to 1000hrs on aircraft over 20’000kg and most of them want it on type. How the hell is anybody able to get this without paying for 500hrs or 1000hrs with Lion Air, or others such as Air Baltic or Farner Aviation just to mention a few?Unions and Airline Management are responsible for the pay2fly trend in all countries except Australia and New Zealand. There the classic approach is still the way to get to the cockpit of a Dash or B737. If we want to stop the pay2fly trend, the Airlines themselves with the Unions need to change their approach and the way the recruit pilots. And one other thing which I don’t like is the arrogant way some of you qualify these pay2fly pilots. I know a few of them myself, French, Spanish, Dutch, Swiss and others. Some have top qualifications and did their training with highly qualified reputable schools in Europe, but just because they did not pay for their training with the national airline they get punished.If you don't spend your money in our flying school we are going to make it hard for you to join us is the message from them. They can simply not apply until they have the hours I have mentioned above. For me the case is clear. The Airlines together with the Unions need to change their attitude and qualification requirements and then this pay2fly will stop.  [This article was edited 3 times, at last 21.07.2012 at 20:32.] |
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Written on: 22. 07. 2012 [23:50]
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fliteadmin
Board CaptainAdministrator Moderator
Topic creator
registered since: 26.12.2006
Posts: 463
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kiwi-99 wrote: Hi Stefan, Pay 2fly is indeed a very interesting topic. I do not agree with you and the others. In my opinion pay2fly is the result of greedy airlines and the unions that also stand behind them. Hi, I think there are two players here. The pilot group and the employer group. Within the pilot group we have the unions which are nothing more than a unified group of pilots basically. So if we put blame on the unions, we indirectly also blame a certain group of pilots.... So everyone get's it's share for the blame in my view. kiwi-99 wrote: Years ago Airlines used to pay students to become pilots while training them. ..... These days, if someone wants to be a pilot he has to pay for it himself. Some airlines sponsor some of the cost but, you normally pay the sponsored portion back within the first 3 to 4 years while working, through salary deduction and at the same time you have a bond. Basically there is not much difference between that and the classic pay2fly which everyone seems to hate and get upset about. The further back in time you go, the more was paid by the airlines. Salary deduction and bonding was quite common in the 90s. By now many airlines do not even offer bonding/salary deduction anymore...pilots has to provide the rating before commencing employment or provide hundreds of hours of experience. This is in my opinion a big (financial) difference. On top of that comes the fact that after having paid for the rating, there is often no job guarantee... That was different 15 years ago. Pilots were hired (unlimited contract) and then the Type Rating Course started... Of course, it was far from perfect and initial salary was relatively low, but more acceptable than many schemes today... kiwi-99 wrote: If a student completes his or her integrated multi engine IFR training with MCC privately, and whishes to apply for example with Swiss Regional, he or she has NO chance of getting in. That's common practice. Airlines like to have 'their' own flying school. The reasons are clear: the airline has more influence on the training itself and they can train the pilots the way they think fits them best. The pilot must be aware of this fact and choose the right school for his/her career goal. Usually no big deal. kiwi-99 wrote: They need to bring the following flying qualifications at time of application - valid JAR ATP License (frozen) - min. 1000h experience on Multi Pilot Aeroplane (MPA) Jet or Prop - valid Multi Engine Instrument Rating (IR). Correct, but only for ready-entry (experienced) pilots. Ab-initio and ready-entry pilots are two different groups. kiwi-99 wrote: 1000hrs to 1500hrs experience, minimum 500hrs to 1000hrs on aircraft over 20’000kg and most of them want it on type. How the hell is anybody able to get this without paying for 500hrs or 1000hrs with Lion Air, or others such as Air Baltic or Farner Aviation just to mention a few? True there are many of those jobs around. Too many. But there are still companies that hire fresh from school. Unfortunately their numbers have declined over time. kiwi-99 wrote: And one other thing which I don’t like is the arrogant way some of you qualify these pay2fly pilots. The quality of p2f pilots is not necessarily lower. They pass through the same school and exams as all the others. p2f starts after the type rating course. Until then it's basically the same for all. kiwi-99 wrote: but just because they did not pay for their training with the national airline they get punished.If you don't spend your money in our flying school we are going to make it hard for you to join us is the message from them. They can simply not apply until they have the hours I have mentioned above. It does not make sense to train elsewhere than the airlines' flight school of choice if you intend to apply for that airline. The problem of p2f is also that it is has become a career path for the wealthy and rich. And that, of course, is not a desirable situation. It should remain a profession for the skilled of all income levels. Young people that are planning their career have become aware of the huge investments and risks involved and choose other career options. This is refelected in lower student numbers than in previous years in many flight schools across Europe. Perhaps a sign that things have to change to the better? flightwork.com - International Pilot Network |
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